Độ cứng của nước nuôi cá dĩa ra sao

Các anh em cho hỏi độ cứng của nước nuôi cá dĩa phải như thế nào. Cách đo độ cứng của nước, cách làm tăng giảm ra sao.Cám ơn nhé

 

Nếu bạn nuôi cá hương hay cá đẻ bằng nước máy thì k nên quan tâm đến vần đề độ cứng làm gi.Còn nếu nước giếng mới phải xử lý mà thôi.Càng nhìu hoá chất vào quá cũng chẳng tốt gì cho cá cả.ngoài tự nhiên đẻ ầm ầm có cần cái gì đâu nước còn dơ hơn mình nuôi nữa mà.bạn chỉ lo vần đề pH thôi

 

Cũng đúng luôn ! ..... he
Túm lại là sản lượng quyết định sự việc he.

 

em đi dạy gia sư đến bài độ cứng sách giáo khoa 12 nó dạy cách đơn giản nhất để giảm độ cứng là đun sôi nước lên. bác thử xem đảm bảo hiệu quả

 

Éc ! chắc mình phải vào doanh trại QĐ mượn mấy cái chảo đồng he !
Tiêu hết vi sinh, điện giải tự nhiên òj !

 

Cái này là phải lấy nước cất cơ, chứ đun xong để đấy vẫn vậy

 

Nếu các bạn nuôi cá để chơi cho vui thì không cần quan âm đến độ cứng của nước, nhưng nêu bạn muốn nuôi cá thật đẹp và thật lớn (18cm trở lên), để có thể đi dự thi các cuộc thi cá đẹp quốc tế thì cần nước thật cứng. Theo bài chỉ dẫn dươi đây và kinh nghiệm của những nhà nuôi cá nổi tiếng như Stendker, Đức và Danzinger, Israel. CĐ họ nổi tiếng là lớn và mạnh so với các nhà nuôi cá ở Thái, Malai, Singaporẹ. Bí quyết của họ là có nguồn nước thật cứng, Stendker, nuôi cá ở độ cứng 800ppm. và Danzinger nuôi cá ở độ 1200ppm.
Mốn tăng độ cứng của nước thì dẽ nhất là pha thêm vôi (Calcium Carbonate CaCO3) vô nước. Mình hiện giờ, mình nuôi CĐ ở độ cứng là 650ppm, và cá không thấy stress tí nào vả lại lớn rất maụ, trung bình 2.5cm 1 tháng.

Triton

Xin post bài dưới đây cho các bạn tham khảo. (Website bài này 0 còn nữa nên kèm theo đây) http://www.thediscustank.com/articl...rd-water-osmoregulation-and-endocrine-factors

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Discus Fish Growth and Hard Water: Osmoregulation and Endocrine Factors

by Brian McReynolds

The life of a Discus fish in the wild is difficult, typically very few fry from a clutch of eggs even reach maturity. There are many natural obstacles to survival and only the fittest persevere to spawn and raise young. The fish must not only survive predators but environmental factors play a role as well and fish must be able to adapt to changing conditions. In particular, numerous studies have shown that teleost (bony) fish have physiological systems in place to allow them to adapt to water of varying salinities. [1] These systems allow fish to survive as natural conditions change and some fish are highly adaptable, traveling from fresh to brackish or even salt water.
Osmoregulation is defined by Merriam-Webster as: “the regulation of osmotic pressure especially in the body of a living organism.” Discus and all teleost fish are constantly expending large amounts of energy simply to maintain the delicate balance of salinity within their own bodies which allows them to survive. You and I are not that different, salinity levels are delicately balanced within humans and drastically affect our own survival as well. Varying levels of teleost osmotic energy expenditure have been reported in studies over the years, typically stating that teleost fish expend from 20% to 50% of their energy for osmoregulation. Other newer sources claim that it may be only in the 10% range. Growth has been repeatedly correlated (but not systematically) to a corresponding lower standard metabolic rate associated with lower osmotic energy expenditure. [2] If you think about it, Discus in nature must expend a great deal of energy to keep the very salts that keep them alive from being drawn out into the surrounding incredibly soft water through their permeable skin, the result of nature ever trying to maintain its own equillibrium.
If I may digress for a moment, I would like to explain my experience with another very personal, successful biology study that I conducted in the years after I left the Discus hobby and how I hope to apply this newfound knowledge to my Discuskeeping. The birth of my two children which helped contribute to my exit from the hobby also helped me realize that I must start taking better care of myself to ensure I survive for a long time to take care of my own spawn. I took up a new hobby, getting myself into optimal health and transforming my obese 300+ lb body.
Logic told me that nobody was more intimately familiar with the actual workings of the human body than the bodybuilder, examples can be found everywhere of their skills and knowledge in losing fat and gaining muscle. Contrary to their popular ‘meathead’ image, many modern bodybuilders are actually brilliant chemists and scientists and are very structured in their application of science to the human body. I conducted hundreds of hours of online study in the subject and applied my new-found knowledge, using natural methods and supplements which helped me to lose over 80 lbs in less than 6 months through proper nutrition and exercise. I transformed my body,losing from well over 300 lbs down to 180 lbs at 10% bodyfat and then building muscle to fill out the frame and truly complete the transformation. I ‘bulked’ (muscle growth phase) to 225 lbs and then ‘cut’ (fat loss phase) the fat to finish at 200 lbs at 6′2″ and I was truly happy with my body for the first time ever.
I have maintained this weight for over 7 years now through my understanding of nutrition and the systems that regulate body composition. What I learned in this journey was how to optimize the human body. I gained a better understanding of the human metabolism and endocrine system and the very important interactions which occur to promote the immune system, protein synthesis, body composition and yes, growth. There are artificial means to supply the critical hormones involved (Barry Bonds anyone? How about most pro athletes, every pro bodybuilder, many actors, etc…) but these methods are typically not conducive to long-term health and the results come with adverse side effects. As the heavy steroid abuser who has grown breast tissue/destroyed his liver or the receiver of any young heavily hormoned Discus can attest, too much of anything is not good.
Back to osmoregulation and teleost fish, it has been shown in many studies that there is an intimate relationship between the endocrine system and the system that maintains fish osmoregulation. The ’seawater adapting hormone’ is often thought of as cortisol while prolactin is the ‘freshwater adapting hormone’, but Stephen D. McCormick summed this relationship up most accurately in American Zoologist writing:

“Although a broad generalization that holds for all teleosts is unlikely, our current understanding indicates that growth hormone promotes acclimation to seawater, prolactin promotes acclimation to fresh water, and cortisol interacts with both of these hormones thus having a dual osmoregulatory function.” [1]
​

In addition, other important Discus biological functions have been shown to be greatly influenced by the endocrine system. Prolactin has been termed ‘the hormone of paternity’ and injections of PCL have proven to increase parental behavior in Discus, including increased fanning behavior and an increase in mucus production. [3] This brings questions to my mind that perhaps some Discus crosses which exhibit poor parental behavior may be somehow genetically unable to produce enough prolactin or possess a lack of receptors to efficiently utilize it. Perhaps a prolactin promoting supplement could be introduced to their food to help overcome this, but a better answer would probably be to introduce some wild blood back into the breeding program for that cross.
Most experienced Discuskeepers are also aware of the use of hormones to induce color in young fish to determine their genetic potential. This suggests to me that naturally stimulating high levels of these hormones through diet and environment will promote the greatest natural color intensities.
Hmmm, where have I seen these terms before? Growth hormone, prolactin, cortisol? In the human body, growth hormone is the Holy Grail for body builders, but to artificially supply it is prohibitively expensive, injectable only, and reserved for only the most elite muscle seekers. Cortisol is regarded as being generated in response to stress, is muscle wasting and avoided at all costs. Prolactin is intimately tied to testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, and the other hormones that are kept in delicate balance by natural feedback systems. Produce too much testosterone and the surplus is converted naturally to estrogen through this feedback system, for instance. The human endocrine system, immunity system, and metabolism can be optimized to support growth naturally through proper nutrition and activity, I suspect that this optimal balance can be found for any creature. With fish we must also consider that the ionic composition of the water in which they are kept is a huge factor as well due to both the reduced energy expenditure available through osmoregulation efficiency and the relationship of the osmoregulatory and endocrine systems. Independent of this consideration we also know that fish do utilize minerals from their water through the gills. [4]
I’ll be honest, my goals as a Discuskeeper may well be very different from yours. I learned the ‘hard way’ before there was much information available on the internet, reading books and what I could glean from the too-advanced-for-me discussions on the Discus-L email distribution list in the early ’90s which I was fortunate enough to find with the rudimentary search technology of the day. I thought that breeding discus was the end-all, be-all of the hobby. With the advent of the DBWS forum I was exposed to interaction with experienced keepers and I saw what a properly-sized Discus looks like with my own eyes. I learned that breeding Discus fish was actually pretty easy, but that growing extremely large, impressive specimens is what is truly hard to do. Maybe you have seen the kind of fish I am talking about, the one with the tiny speck of an eye and rippling with muscle tone. Maybe you haven’t, I have found in the past that many Discuskeepers believe that they know what a big fish looks like but I have also seen their jaws drop when they entered my old fishroom and saw a true 8″ fish that couldn’t be described as the oft-used ‘dinner plate’ since the thickness of the body is what makes the fish truly impressive in my opinion. Growing big Discus fish like these takes good genetics as well as great water and nutrition, every day, day in and out.
Similar to bodybuilding, growing big fish requires discipline and dedication to adhere to the best practices which promote growth and one slight indiscretion can upset the delicate feedback system which regulates this growth. If I were intentionally trying to grow one of these large specimens -and were to encounter a disease or environmental problem which set the fish back only a day or two- I would likely consider the project abandoned as the cycle has been interrupted and there are a only a finite amount of days for growth to occur before adulthood. Not unlike a professional bodybuilder preparing for show day, one slight transgression can ruin the entire event and cost the trophy. Is there anything wrong with this fish that was setback? Of course not, it could still reach a very impressive size, maybe even the same as one that was not setback, but why take the chance on all that hard work when you already know the cycle was not optimal? That Discus would still make a fine pet for many hobbyists who would be happy to have him should you not have the tankspace, and could likely still be the biggest fish they own.
In the pure interest of optimizing the growth rate of my Discus fish I keep my own juveniles in harder water than what many purists might consider optimal. I do this due to the above considerations. In my mind there is sufficent written evidence to support my own personal observation that Discus fish grow faster in harder water. Hanns-J Krause in Diskus Brief [5] referred to earlier research done by Joseph Gargas[6] and displayed a chart showing that the relative growth rate of discus increased by an astonishing factor of 4 when grown in water with an electrical conductivity of 750 uS/cm and 320 ppm CaCO3 as opposed to 100 uS and 36 ppm CaCO3. The editor’s note attributed this entirely to osmoregulation energy conservation, but as you can see there is more than likely an endocrinlogical factor and other factors as well. So the next time you hear that a certain area’s tapwater is great for growing Discus, take the time to ask yourself why.
Taking this concept a step further, I consider how bodybuilders use cycles in many of their processes to keep the body ‘guessing’, to keep receptors sensitized, to keep the body from adapting to their routine. Only from the initial stress of the bodybuilders workout does the body respond and grow and the concept of cycles repeats itself throughout the entire discipline. While I believe that Discus fish will grow faster in harder water than soft, I also believe that it may be possible to use cycles of hardness and softness to stimulate growth hormone and in turn actual growth. Perhaps the corresponding effects of cortisol could be mitigated by introducing a cortisol antagonist to the diet. I don’t have the time or space to investigate these possibilities at this time but for now will be content to keep my fish in moderately hard water.
Will these fish which grow faster realize a larger potential size in the end? That would be the final consideration for me, but there are certainly other factors which must be optimized for as well. My past experience with Discus fish has told me that to grow them big- I must grow them as fast as I can and keep that relative eye size as small as possible for as long as possible. Water composition is one of the tools at my disposal to do that and I will utilize every advantage that I can find.
Please keep in mind that my musings are my own and influence the way that I keep my Discus fish, but there are many factors involved and you may find your circumstances very different. There is also the old wive’s tale to keep in mind that Discus fish kept in extremely hard water have sterility issues, I have not found this to be the case with moderate hardness levels, but it may also be prudent to not push the limits of hardness for fish that you intend to sell or breed. There are also trade-offs involved, softer water typically has a lower PH and ammonia is not toxic at lower PH levels. Also remember that the amount of oxygen that can be saturated in the water decreases as temperature and salinity increase. I recommend taking any Discus advice you find with a grain of salt (pun intended), even my own. Now go grow ‘em big!
Reference
[1] McCormick, Stephen D “Endocrine control of osmoregulation in teleost fish“. American Zoologist. Sep 2001
[2] Boeuf G, Payan P. “How should salinity influence fish growth?” Comp Biochem Physiol C Toxicol Pharmacol. 2001 Dec
[3] Carsten Schradin and Gustl Anzenberger“Prolactin, the Hormone of Paternity” News in Physiological Sciences, Vol. 14, No. 6, 223-231, December 1999
[4] Dominique P. Bureau and C.Young Cho “An Introduction to Nutrition and Feeding of Fish” Fish Nutrition Research Laboratory Dept. of Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario
[5] Hanns-J. Krause “Reducing the pH Value, But How?” Diskus Brief, The International Discus Journal, Vol. 1, No. 4, December 1994
[6] Joseph Gargas “Water Chemistry for the Discus Culturist” FAMA Magazine, March 1991

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tăng độ cứng của nước 0 nguy hiểm như PH hoạc nhiệt độ. Cứ mỗi ngày, khi thay nước, tăng lên 10dH cho đên khi tới độ cứng mình muốn. Vì sao 0 nguy hiểm, mình thí dụ, khi bạn dung muối để chữa bệnh cho cá, đó là lên độ cứng của nước, bạn thử check độ cứng của nước sau khi bỏ muôí vào xem, độ cứng tăng lên rất nhiều mà cá không hề gì.

Thân
Triton

 

Về điểm này thì e đồng ý , Cá Dĩa chủ yếu bị sốc nước là do Nhiệt độ và pH .
Tuy nhiên e đã từng thử nuôi CD ở độ cứng 15-16dH trong 1 thời gian cá có vẻ kém linh hoạt hơn nhưng vẫn phát triển bình thường , có điểm đáng chú ý là cá ít khi bệnh ( có lẻ vì e tăng dH bằng muối nên tự nó sát khuẩn luôn rồi ) và những con cá có sắc tố đỏ thì đỏ hơn nuôi bình thường nhiều .

Thân chào !

 

Nhìn những hình CĐ của các ae bên VN trên diễn đàn, có nhiều người nuôi cá rất chuẩn và đẹp không thua gì các nước khác, nhưng it thấy ai chịu ra bí quết, đa sô' các bài viêt chỉ cách nuôi CĐ là những bài cách đây 10-20 năm được dịch lại (những bài này không sai). Họ không ra bí quyêt, có lẽ vì bảo vệ chén cơm mà dâu nghề chăng? Nêu em muốn mình có thể viết một bài chỉ ae nuôi cá làm giầu nha?
Thân
Triton


Ủng hộ anh Triton. Sao không có chữ cám ơn vậy ta ??

 

Chào các anh chị,

K vừa tìm định nghĩa độ cứng water hardess trên wikipedia, xin trích lại:

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water
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Hard water is water that has high mineral content (in contrast with soft water). Hard water minerals primarily consist of calcium (Ca2+), and magnesium (Mg2+) metal cations, and sometimes other dissolved compounds such as bicarbonates and sulfates. Calcium usually enters the water as either calcium carbonate (CaCO3), in the form of limestone and chalk, or calcium sulfate (CaSO4), in the form of other mineral deposits. The predominant source of magnesium is dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Hard water is generally not harmful to one's health.
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Như vậy, muối ăn (Nacl) hoàn toàn không tham gia vào quá trình tăng độ cứng của nước, cả gH và kH.

Và hình như có sự nhầm lẫn giữa độ dẫn điện của nước và độ cứng của nước ở đây. Chứ K thử nuôi cá dĩa ở độ cứng 15dH (~268ppm) thì cá dĩa ăn uống rất kém.

Kitax

 

cho mình đính chính lại một chút, nhiều khi trí nhớ cũng 0 còn tốt lắm . Stendker và Danziger đo độ cứng bằng microsiemens:

Stendker 800ms=512ppm=30dH - tin này mình bắt được trên diễn đàn simplydiscus.com từ Discus-Hans (Đại diện của Stendker, ở USA) (kiếm được link sẽ post lên sau)

Danziger 1200ms=769ppm=40dH (http://www.danziger-discus.com/Home_E.html)
(video về Danziger Discus http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=danziger+discus&search_type=&aq=f)

còn 650ppm thì là mức độ mình đang nuôi CĐ (khoảng giữa của Stendker và Danziger)

Thân
Triton

 

khi nói đến độ cứng của nước, mình muốn nói đến TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) "cái gì" hoà vô nứơc cũng tăng TDS, muối, vôi v.v. Vả lại mình chỉ dùng muối làm thí dụ cho việc tăng độ cứng sẽ 0 nguy hiểm thôi chứ 0 nói là có thể dùng muối để tăng GH/DH.
thân
Triton